Curse

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

So someone in my guild and I were discussing the importance of the +3 rune for MM heroes.

I think the difference between 14 and 16 Death Magic for heroes is slight.

He thinks that having 16 Death Magic is the only way to go with heroes.

Since the discussion came up I have been curious as to whether or not it is really that important. So I am asking for the opinions of others. Any thoughts?

angmar_nite · Mar 06, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

16 death all the way. Flesh Golem is bad.

Songbringer · Mar 06, 2008, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Nope Flesh Golem is bad to start. And that would be the only thing you need 16 for. Jagged all the way

madriel222 · Mar 06, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

You get 8 more armor, 40 more health, and about 10 more DPS. You decide if it's worth it.

angmar_nite · Mar 06, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

You always want 16 death magic for the most minions. But use OotU, AotL, or Jagged Bones.

Carinae · Mar 06, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

You get 8 more armor, 40 more health, and about 10 more DPS. You decide if it's worth it.

Furthermore, you'll max out at 9 minions, and cause Blood of the Master to cost 14hp more per use. (assuming 9 minions)

Your minions will also get less critical hits.

Racthoh · Mar 06, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Minion Master is the only build that comes to mind where using the superior is well worth the 75 health trade off.

Songbringer · Mar 06, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Hmmmm My hero runs 14 DM and can have 10 minions so.....

Racthoh · Mar 06, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbringer

Hmmmm My hero runs 14 DM and can have 10 minions so.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by When I Mouse Over Death Magic

Without Death Magic, you can control no more than two undead servants. For every two ranks of Death Magic, you can control one additional undead servant. Many Necromancer skills, especially those that animate undead servants, manipulate corpses, and deal cold damage, become more effective with higher Death Magic.

So... it's a bug then or you're mistaken.

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbringer

Nope Flesh Golem is bad to start. And that would be the only thing you need 16 for. Jagged all the way

I run one MM/support necro and one MM/jagged bones necro. Maybe I will try a dual jagged bones necro team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Minion Master is the only build that comes to mind where using the superior is well worth the 75 health trade off.

So 16 vs. 14 is really that big a deal huh?

Not that I am disagreeing with any of you - maybe I am just not that astute - but I've never really noticed a significant difference with the effectiveness of my MM heroes.

That is, I see your point "on paper" but in practice I do not notice any measurable difference, except that my necro's die slightly as often with the extra HP's.

So, how can I measure this in practice? Aside from attacking a really powerful boss, because they aren't much of a factor then except to keep me alive long enough to nuke the bosses.

Also, does anybody know the HP's, armor, DPS of the different minions?

Osi Ri S · Mar 06, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Having 16 DM (also having -75hp from rune) really has not downsides because the less health you have, the less you end up saccing. So not only are your minions stronger, but you arent saccing as much.

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Osi

You bring up a valid point.

That isn't a concern for me though because I don't usually use Blood of the Master or any other skill like that. It's counter-productive to bombing. I do sometimes use feast for the dead and taste of death though, for precision bombing.

Racthoh · Mar 06, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

So 16 vs. 14 is really that big a deal huh?

Compared to others, yes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Mathematically, you're giving up about 13% of your margin for error (the amount of damage you can take before you get away / a monk intervenes / everything dies, etc) - a number that increases if you make further trade-offs or pick up DP - for that boost to efficiency. What you gain from that depends on what skills you want to look at, and how many dimensions scale on them. If you're looking at getting a straight, 14-16 attribute boost:

Minion armies gain a 50% increase in potency from the superior rune, between minion durability, minion damage, and the extra minion on the cap. No character benefits nearly as much going from 14 to 16 as a Minion Master.

Spiteful Spirit and Insidious Parasite do about 25% more damage if they last their full durations. At the same time Enfeebling Blood gains very little from the extra attribute, and Reckless Haste literally gains nothing. If things die before those hexes expire naturally, you get a damage bonus on par with what you get from Barbs, 14%.

Elementalist damage skills get 10 and 13% more damage when you put on the superior. With the exception of Mind Blast and Glowing Gaze, secondary effects from your skills rarely gain anything from the attribute boost. All linearly scaling damage skills perform the same way. Defensive enchantments from Earth gain a lot of potency however, particularly Stoneflesh Aura, in addition to extra seconds that might be necessary to maintain them.

Healing skills gain between 7% (small heals) and 12% (party heals) from putting on a superior. Protection skills gain virtually nothing, usually a second or two tacked onto the end that doesn't matter that much.

Physical attackers gain about 10% extra weapon damage from putting on a superior, between base damage, extra criticals, and better skills.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=83

Carinae · Mar 06, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

Also, does anybody know the HP's, armor, DPS of the different minions?

HIT POINTS

All minions: 80 + 20*LVL

ARMOR

Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL

All other minion types: AL=4*LVL

DPS

Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done.

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I adjusted some stuff, and this is what I am going to try out. Further help is appreciated.

MM/Sup Olias
16 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
9 Healing

Jagged Bones
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Infuse Condition
Draw Conditions
Dwanya's Sorrow
Renew Life

I am an ele, the condition removal is not negotiable for me.

SS/MM Livia

10 Death Magic
10 Soul Reaping
16 Curses

Spiteful Spirit
Death Nova
Animate Shambling Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Parasitic Bond
Putrid Bile
Barbs
Rebirth

Rebirth is often swapped out for res sig.

-EDIT-

Also, for Livia any anti-monk curses I should consider?

Asha Rai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:43 AM // 06:43

As well as the increased damage, health and armor, higher level minions have less of a 'level difference' disadvantage. From memory, this disadvantage translates into 6 armor per level (this is why you are able to do massive damage to low level creatures). Also, my understanding is that the lower your level (relative to your attacker), the more likely they will score a critical against you.

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Asha,

I knew that. That's usually not much of a concern for me as I tend to nuke everything to crap before it matters. And if they crit my bombers it only helps. I thank you for the info though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

HIT POINTS

All minions: 80 + 20*LVL

ARMOR

Bone Fiends, Bone Minions: AL=3*LVL

All other minion types: AL=4*LVL

DPS

Depends on level, but I don't have any stats on the DPS per level. The only stats I have are based on level 18 minions and those stats are old and need to be re-done.

Nice info to have, thank you.

Carinae · Mar 06, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Use this: Olias MM

16 DM
13 SR
4 Blood

[skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Put your condition removal on your monk, where it should be. Don't use Draw Conditions, use Dismiss or Mend Condition. I know you are trying to funnel the conditions to the minions, but you'll get a lot more mileage out of Dismiss/Mend.

Delete the second build and never bring it up again.

Asha Rai · Mar 06, 2008, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Edit.

Seems my memory sux, and the level difference disadvantage applies only to attack power, and not to armor. Although the level dependent susceptibility to criticals does exist.

Zonzai · Mar 06, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

I gotcha Asha, I just kind of want my minions to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Use this: Olias MM
Delete the second build and never bring it up again.

No SS then?

And I usually use hench monks... excluding HM. Which I try to avoid anyway.